Threat Meter
 

what i really would want is a Threat Meter, to see who has the most aggro during fights, that would be very useful to a Minstrel and DPS', so they know when they have to be less aggresive.

remember to be civilized with this topic then :)

These kind of plugins won't be possible to do as they would give advantage over other players and would make the content design in some cases trivial. So I'm afraid you have to wait for a long time to see something like this in Lotro ..

ohh okay :) would be very nice though

To me, what separates the good vs bad when it comes to dps classes is the ability to self manage your threat while maintaining your damage. With threat meters you stop using your brain and start using your meters/eyes. IMHO this would take all the fun out of playing a dps class.

i see where you are going, but if it takes the fun away, then why dont make it? you dont have to use it, if you dont want to? Turbine can annonce it on loading screen and all players would be able to download it if they want to

Because those who do use it will cruise through content. What was once a challenge will then be a simple "watch the meter" exercise. Once content is so easily completed, the difficulties will naturally be increased. At that point, those who don't use the meter won't be able to compete. So it'll be either go with the meter or go home.

It's a vicious circle, and it doesn't improve the game.

And I won't believe that the difficulty won't be increased. Already there's calls of "easy mode" and complaints that things are too easy already. Also, I won't accept that the meter wouldn't simplify content. If it didn't make things easier, people wouldn't be asking for it.

It's akin to asking for a button that kills every mob in a 100 meter radius. Sure it'd be cool - but don't you think if we had something like that they'd plan for it when designing content? And once they began factoring that it, don't you think someone without that button would have significantly more problems?

rushl

i get it now :D no button, it was worth a try :D

Because those that refuse to use it, will still have a disadvantage over those that can easily manage their aggro. Besides making data such as that visible to players that otherwise wouldn't is turning the game into another Spread Sheet Online.

My thoughts exactly.

Perfectly stated. It was one of the things that drove me away from WoW. It no longer became a game of skill, it became a "check the block" type game. You stopped asking people if they could beat content and started asking if the had done it yet. It ceases to be challenging and becomes more of a interactive movie. Having enough time was the deciding factor for beating content, not skill.

WoW ceased being a game of skill and a game of 'You know how to use this Addon?"

Indeed, that was exactly one of the things that attracted me to LOTRO from the start, when I entered (closed) beta :)

Some of the most enjoyable encounters are bosses that have scripted aggro wipes. We already have "Target's Target" Option available and combine that with the "Directional Indicator" and that is a pretty powerful combo for aggro management. To aid aggro management, all classes need to use the tools available and threat meters would not be necessary. Hunters drop to endurance and use quickshot, Champ use ebbing ire, Minstrels use lute strings and song of soothing (I think), RKs use distracting winds, etc. Tanks also need to rely less on force taunt snap aggro and use their aggro skills. I see too many gaurds these days relying solely on Challenge to hold aggro. I have run DN and BG on my gaurd without threat stance just fine.

Sorry I think I derailed this and may have come off preachy(not my intention)...

*Signs the +no threat meter+ agreement*

Mind you... I didn't really bother with the threat meter in WoW either - it was there, but I never looked at it as a Tank or a DPS hunter. I just looked at what was happening, thought about the skill of the people I was working with and adjusted accordingly.

As for Tanking strategies... I NEED MORE EXPERIENCE!

I may be going against the grain in this forum, but personally I would like to see the ability to create a threat meter.

To answer the original poster, at this time the API does not allow for any such addon to be created. That may or may not change.

Some people have voiced thier opinions as to why it should not be allowed. My personal opinion is that it enhances overall gameplay. The more information you have the better you can be, and that goes for just about anything. It allows the player if he or she chooses to have the ability to use spells or cooldowns based on the level of threat.

If everyone else gets a vote for the money they pay to play, i want my vote to be heard as well. :)

Personally, I agree with Penborn. A threat meter enhances my ability to play. I can see as a tank that I need to step it up threat wise or tell the dps to hold off a bit. Or, if I have plenty of threat I can use skills to bolster my defenses to help reduce amount of healing I would need. I would also have the option, if healing is a non-issue, to help by using more dps skills.

For me, guessing or relying on a hunch whether I have enough threat is not the best system. I'd like to know concretely through a number that my threat output is enough to keep a mob on me. If it simplies content as some suggest, then a threat meter probably isn't the issue to begin with but the content itself that is lacking.

As far as this continuing to be a slippery slope into dps meters and spreadsheet analysis, I can understand the dislike for that kind of gameplay. We are here to play a game after all rather than work which would for some make it feel. In this game there is alot more going on. Those who would try to criticize someone because of their lack of dps are typically not understanding of the full picture. I completely disagree with anything like a gearscore addon. It is not the gear that makes a player or even the amount of dps that someone does.....

We all agree that a threat meter would make the game easier for those who use it. In fact, that's the exact reason why there should not be a threat meter. It makes the game easier for those who use it. Therefore, content needs to be increased in difficulty to adjust for those who have it easier. That leads to either destroying gameplay for those who don't use it, or making the meter a requirement for play. Neither of those are an improvement.

Part of the skill of the game is learning to judge your threat, and managing it. Just like part of the game is selecting the correct skills and targets during an encounter. Would you ask for a plugin that auto-selects the ideal skill to use, and applies that to the proper target without any user judgment? Right now, a good hunter will know when to switch out of Strength stance, and back down the DPS. A poor hunter will keep banging away in Strength until no one else can keep the mob from killing him. With a meter, anyone can manage threat. What use is it to become good at what you do if anyone can do it?

Think of it like chess. In chess, you rely on your observation of the board, and your judgment (or your guess) as to what your opponent might do in order to formulate your own move. Don't you think that if you used a computer to analyze the board, calculate all possible moves, and then suggest to you the most optimal move, you'd be missing the point of playing the game?

As it is now, there is a certain amount of knowledge and judgment needed to play the game. A threat meter would remove those - and instead you'd need a certain amount of visual ability to see the line on the graph to play the game. In the first case, experience and practice will improve your skills, and make you a better player. In the second case, you're just an interpreter passing data from the meter to the game. The player is important in the first case, and simply a slow data conduit (which could be replaced with automated skill firing to improve speed) in the second.

Which do you want to be?

rushl

I appreciate your opinion rush. However, I have to disagree with what you have to say.

Guessing the amount of threat I am generating from a feeling is not skill. Yes, there is judgement and knowledge needed to play the game. A threat meter would not remove that. As I stated previously, you would be given the option to exercise even more judgement about what you should do. If you're struggling with threat overall, then you need to figure out what the problem is. If not, you have options available to you to assist your teammates in more constructive ways rather than spamming aggro generating skills.

In your line of thinking, we may as well get rid of our vitals display and start guessing what they are because that would make it too easy.

Again, I understand where you are coming from and will enjoy the game either way.

Whenever I see a discussion come up about something that will "trivialize the content" or "make the game too easy", I always wonder whether the individuals that claim such things are doing so only because it isn't in the game. Excuses such as "If you were a good player, you'd be able to accomplish something without such a feature" don't really say much - especially if such feature was some kind of notification or meter. Meters and notifications are created to make things easier on a user/player in the first place - none of them are really ever necessary. So saying such a meter would make the game "too easy" is the opinion of the individual - especially if they have no problems playing the game without it.

Do we need to see the exact numbers of our power or morale? Or even, do we need the bars in addition to the numbers? Do we need combat response indicators? Do we need fervour/focus/attunement meters? Do we need all those stat numbers/percentages? How about a casting bar? The answer to all of those is a no of course. All of these make the game a little easier to play, and some even give a player an advantage.

A meter in itself only gives information - it's up to the player to use that information as they see fit, and to the best of their ability. Some players embrace the numbers that an MMO is built on, and look at such meters as nothing different than a tachometer on a car. Sure, someone could operate a manual transmission quite well, just by listening to the sound of the engine - but only a tachometer will give you exactly how many RPMs the engine is turning, and allow you to shift at a specific point.

That being said - it is possible for a threat meter to reduce some of the challenge in an instance. However, unless DN is a completely different ballgame, most of the challenge in instances aren't due to simple threat mechanics. Between random threat, strategy, and execution of said strategy - only the worst groups fail an instance because the guard was in the bathroom, and the hunter thought going 4 deep in BM in strength stance was a great way to live longer.

That aside, threat is not a visible mechanic in the game - Turbine has always been very vague about threat - never using actual numbers and instead, using terms such as low, moderate and high. It's a mechanic that unlike even DPS/HPS is completely hidden from the player - where the only way to tell is whether or not a mob starts moving towards you. Should Turbine decide to make this mechanic more transparent, then I would agree that Threat Meters should be available - but as long as Turbine's hiding this mechanic behind a curtain, then I think it should remain there.

I suppose here is where our difference lies. I've seen hunters who have no clue stay in Strength and pound DPS. They die quickly, usually. Often with experience though, they learn how far to push it. When to drop to Endurance. When they can switch back to Strength. The decision process there comes from experience, and the ability to gauge Threat. It's not just "guessing". As an experienced hunter, I have a good idea of how long to wait and let the guard build up Threat before I start wailing. And I can usually judge when to back off, so I don't pull the mob. Sometimes I screw it up - and I hope I can learn from those mistakes, and improve next time.

That's experience. And it's meaningless if there was a little bar telling me when to do what. The bar becomes a substitute for experience, and I think that's what people generally don't like.

Eh, the only judgment it takes to correctly use the Threat meter is the ability to read, or more likely just the ability to identify color. Sure, that's a "judgment" - but it's one a 7 year old could do. "If the meter becomes RED, switch to Endurance and stop shooting." That's not a skill. That's just reading. I want more from my gaming experience that to just read off a meter which skill to use when and press the button.

That's exaggerating the argument. Sure, getting rid of all informational displays would increase difficulty. But being as difficult as possible isn't the goal here. There's a balance between too hard and too easy - and we want to stay in the middle of that. Getting rid of all information makes things too hard. Threat meters makes things too easy. Ergo, keep the information we have now, and don't add Threat meters.

This could be true to an extent - but we have knowledge of what adding Threat meters has done to other games. Therefore, we know the difference between having it and not, and most people believe that not is better.

Perhaps that's true, but if Threat weren't a key factor in most encounters, people wouldn't be asking for meters. If Threat were removed as a factor in an encounter, and knowing it didn't make things easier or harder, I don't think people would care if there was a meter. It's like asking to know your hobbit's shoe size. If the data doesn't affect the game, there's no harm in knowing it. I believe however that Threat is a key component to most encounters (well, group ones anyway). That's why some are asking for a meter.

I have no doubt that if we're given access to that data we'll see a meter in minutes. :) I would also be inclined to believe that if Turbine gives us that data, then it would be a statement that they didn't think Threat management was a key component to the game. Essentially, it's on them to determine exactly how important Threat is. Unless they can be convinced that it's not a key component, our discussion is largely academic.

rushl

You make some very good points for your argument rush and I had planned on trading blows with you on it. However, it just comes down to personal play style and what we want and enjoy in a game. I believe that guessing games are not what make encounters enjoyable. The encounter mechanics make the encounters enjoyable.

The irony of all this is that I'm currently working on a system whereby a solo player can run through old pen-and-paper RPG modules - and a key component of the system is Threat. :D

Of course, in my instance, the player will know what his threat levels are. After all, you can't hide information from yourself. My system is a long way off, but I plan on using a card draw mechanic to acquire and remove Threat from the PCs.

Now, if only I can finish working out the "AI" behavior. I'm trying to find something simple enough that it can be done quickly by hand, yet complex enough to make the encounters interesting and engaging...

:eek:

rushl

Except that balance is completely and entirely subjective. Personally I don't need response indicators to know when my crit chain is unlocked - and I really don't need to know my focus, or other various bits of information the game gives me already - once you play a character enough, you get a feel for exactly what the situation is. Heck, I can tell if I crit on a bow attack just by the sound. However, it's reassuring to see the numbers if you want them - and that is one part of why some people want meters. Not to make the game easier - but to simply be informed.

First off let's call a spade, a spade. Meters did not "ruin" any game - at most they ruined the game for certain people - but I'm pretty sure those other games are still running along quite well. The problem boils down to the fact that whatever game you had a bad experience with meters in, was because the majority wanted to use them. Most likely due to how competitive and deep the end game was. Sure, you'll get some ex WoW players in here that want to live and die by the addon - but you're going to be hard pressed to find that same form of "necessity" here. This game is not going to attract the hardcore set, nor keep them here for very long. LotRO doesn't really have an endgame - at least in the sense that you have to raid to get the best gear. Heck, that can be gotten with three man groups right now.

Well that's a bit of a reach - to say something is a key factor, just because people want more information about it. Sure, it's obviously important to them - but is it important to them because the success of their group hinges on it, or they just want the extra information? There seems to be this underlying fallacy that shows up whenever meters are discussed, that anybody who wants X meter, only does so because they can't play the game without it. Sometimes its just wanting to see your performance, to see exactly how good you're doing. Obviously if a hunter is running in strength stance with 4 deep on Bowmaster, and you manage to keep aggro - then you're doing a really good job. But in a game based on numbers, it's not hard to understand why some want the numbers to prove it.

And that really is my main point - What is significant, or would make the game too easy or not, is really up for Turbine to decide. Anything else is just opinion and experience in other games.

I knew this would become a popular thread :D .. what a surprise hehe

How about a different perspective on this? That of the minstrel trying to keep the group alive. To me, it is a whole different perspective on threat than that of the hunter or the guard. This thread has been focusing primarily on the threat generated by the hunter. What about healing aggro? As a healer, I have so many things to pay attention to that a threat meter for me would be HUGE! Unfortunately, I usually don't pay too much attention to threat because if I stop healing because of that, someone usually dies. Too often, it is me that dies because I am too focused on keeping others alive.

I realize that at this point, threat meters are a non-issue because they can't be done but from a healers point of view, I would love to have one! But we could just say I'm a lousy healer and be done with it ... although I do the best that I can!

I guess you answered your argument yourself hehe

In Lotro healers would have little use of Threat meter just because you can't wait for threat to lower while for example tank is dying, you just need to heal and hope for the best (and for a force taunt if you see a balrog running towards you :D)

In vanilla-wow that was a bit different when you had 40 player raids with 10 healers. There you could and sometimes had to take it easy and let others heal for a change.

Well, usually when I'm tanking, I just use my threat generators on a powerful foe until I see it turn around and start attacking me.

It always fascinates me - whenever talk of threat meters comes up there is always a huge argument. I can see the position on both sides of this, but fall firmly on the "No please" side - and for an odd reason.

I already find myself watching various meters - Cooldowns on skills, health, power, reactions etc. Give me another bar and I probably would hardly look at the game itself at all! That is why with my action bar plugins I like the ability to fade bars. I would love to be able to fade out even more, to give myself more of an immersive experience.

Tactically, threat is about gaining a feel for the fight and how it is going, and that is a skill. Right now without DPS meters and such the pressure to perform 'perfectly' is low - add these to the game and I feel it would ruin part of it for me.

And a personal hate? Those monsters that seem to aggro dump every five seconds and you have no way of keeping threat. I seem to remember the attack on Bree skirmish having that at the end. Damn irritating as the tank - makes me feel like a faliure!

The "perform perfectly" part is very true. I watched a rogue get kicked from a guild for not having his DPS high enough after we downed Anub. We completely smashed ToC, but the rouge's DPS was not numerically up to what the guild leader thought was satisfactory and he kicked him....it was just messed up.

Not only did I realize that the GL was an ass clown, but I saw why the meters were complete trash...

ups sorry Olenn accidently edited your post as the damn edit button is so much looking alike (don't worry I didn't cencor your post in anyway).

Just wanted to add there's nothing special about that. That happened a lot with HC raiding guilds. I don't know if it's still the same but at least it was in the past

I did get a big kick out of having an excellent DPS with less than superb gear - often out-dps-ing people in much better gear. That was fab. But when meters are used as a tool to differentiate between people is the moment it becomes wrong. It would be impossible to have one without the other *unless* you could only track your own results - and then what would be the point without being able to compare them.

But, this thread was about threat, rather than DPS - so sorry for dis-railing it somewhat. It's just that one wouldn't be far behind the other, in my opinion only of course. My crystal ball is at the cleaners.