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  #11  
Unread 09-29-2010, 08:06 PM
Skald Skald is offline
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WoW ceased being a game of skill and a game of 'You know how to use this Addon?"
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  #12  
Unread 09-30-2010, 06:28 AM
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Wicked Mouse Wicked Mouse is offline
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Indeed, that was exactly one of the things that attracted me to LOTRO from the start, when I entered (closed) beta
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  #13  
Unread 09-30-2010, 10:01 AM
Moliere Moliere is offline
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Some of the most enjoyable encounters are bosses that have scripted aggro wipes. We already have "Target's Target" Option available and combine that with the "Directional Indicator" and that is a pretty powerful combo for aggro management. To aid aggro management, all classes need to use the tools available and threat meters would not be necessary. Hunters drop to endurance and use quickshot, Champ use ebbing ire, Minstrels use lute strings and song of soothing (I think), RKs use distracting winds, etc. Tanks also need to rely less on force taunt snap aggro and use their aggro skills. I see too many gaurds these days relying solely on Challenge to hold aggro. I have run DN and BG on my gaurd without threat stance just fine.

Sorry I think I derailed this and may have come off preachy(not my intention)...
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  #14  
Unread 09-30-2010, 11:23 AM
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MrJackdaw MrJackdaw is offline
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*Signs the +no threat meter+ agreement*

Mind you... I didn't really bother with the threat meter in WoW either - it was there, but I never looked at it as a Tank or a DPS hunter. I just looked at what was happening, thought about the skill of the people I was working with and adjusted accordingly.

As for Tanking strategies... I NEED MORE EXPERIENCE!
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  #15  
Unread 09-30-2010, 04:06 PM
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Penborn Penborn is offline
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I may be going against the grain in this forum, but personally I would like to see the ability to create a threat meter.

To answer the original poster, at this time the API does not allow for any such addon to be created. That may or may not change.

Some people have voiced thier opinions as to why it should not be allowed. My personal opinion is that it enhances overall gameplay. The more information you have the better you can be, and that goes for just about anything. It allows the player if he or she chooses to have the ability to use spells or cooldowns based on the level of threat.

If everyone else gets a vote for the money they pay to play, i want my vote to be heard as well.

Last edited by Penborn : 09-30-2010 at 06:47 PM.
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  #16  
Unread 10-01-2010, 02:10 AM
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Grim Grim is offline
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Personally, I agree with Penborn. A threat meter enhances my ability to play. I can see as a tank that I need to step it up threat wise or tell the dps to hold off a bit. Or, if I have plenty of threat I can use skills to bolster my defenses to help reduce amount of healing I would need. I would also have the option, if healing is a non-issue, to help by using more dps skills.

For me, guessing or relying on a hunch whether I have enough threat is not the best system. I'd like to know concretely through a number that my threat output is enough to keep a mob on me. If it simplies content as some suggest, then a threat meter probably isn't the issue to begin with but the content itself that is lacking.

As far as this continuing to be a slippery slope into dps meters and spreadsheet analysis, I can understand the dislike for that kind of gameplay. We are here to play a game after all rather than work which would for some make it feel. In this game there is alot more going on. Those who would try to criticize someone because of their lack of dps are typically not understanding of the full picture. I completely disagree with anything like a gearscore addon. It is not the gear that makes a player or even the amount of dps that someone does.....
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  #17  
Unread 10-01-2010, 02:33 AM
rushl rushl is offline
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We all agree that a threat meter would make the game easier for those who use it. In fact, that's the exact reason why there should not be a threat meter. It makes the game easier for those who use it. Therefore, content needs to be increased in difficulty to adjust for those who have it easier. That leads to either destroying gameplay for those who don't use it, or making the meter a requirement for play. Neither of those are an improvement.

Part of the skill of the game is learning to judge your threat, and managing it. Just like part of the game is selecting the correct skills and targets during an encounter. Would you ask for a plugin that auto-selects the ideal skill to use, and applies that to the proper target without any user judgment? Right now, a good hunter will know when to switch out of Strength stance, and back down the DPS. A poor hunter will keep banging away in Strength until no one else can keep the mob from killing him. With a meter, anyone can manage threat. What use is it to become good at what you do if anyone can do it?

Think of it like chess. In chess, you rely on your observation of the board, and your judgment (or your guess) as to what your opponent might do in order to formulate your own move. Don't you think that if you used a computer to analyze the board, calculate all possible moves, and then suggest to you the most optimal move, you'd be missing the point of playing the game?

As it is now, there is a certain amount of knowledge and judgment needed to play the game. A threat meter would remove those - and instead you'd need a certain amount of visual ability to see the line on the graph to play the game. In the first case, experience and practice will improve your skills, and make you a better player. In the second case, you're just an interpreter passing data from the meter to the game. The player is important in the first case, and simply a slow data conduit (which could be replaced with automated skill firing to improve speed) in the second.

Which do you want to be?

rushl

Last edited by rushl : 10-01-2010 at 02:50 AM.
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  #18  
Unread 10-01-2010, 03:00 AM
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Grim Grim is offline
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I appreciate your opinion rush. However, I have to disagree with what you have to say.

Guessing the amount of threat I am generating from a feeling is not skill. Yes, there is judgement and knowledge needed to play the game. A threat meter would not remove that. As I stated previously, you would be given the option to exercise even more judgement about what you should do. If you're struggling with threat overall, then you need to figure out what the problem is. If not, you have options available to you to assist your teammates in more constructive ways rather than spamming aggro generating skills.

In your line of thinking, we may as well get rid of our vitals display and start guessing what they are because that would make it too easy.

Again, I understand where you are coming from and will enjoy the game either way.
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  #19  
Unread 10-01-2010, 04:05 AM
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Digital_Utopia Digital_Utopia is offline
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Whenever I see a discussion come up about something that will "trivialize the content" or "make the game too easy", I always wonder whether the individuals that claim such things are doing so only because it isn't in the game. Excuses such as "If you were a good player, you'd be able to accomplish something without such a feature" don't really say much - especially if such feature was some kind of notification or meter. Meters and notifications are created to make things easier on a user/player in the first place - none of them are really ever necessary. So saying such a meter would make the game "too easy" is the opinion of the individual - especially if they have no problems playing the game without it.

Do we need to see the exact numbers of our power or morale? Or even, do we need the bars in addition to the numbers? Do we need combat response indicators? Do we need fervour/focus/attunement meters? Do we need all those stat numbers/percentages? How about a casting bar? The answer to all of those is a no of course. All of these make the game a little easier to play, and some even give a player an advantage.

A meter in itself only gives information - it's up to the player to use that information as they see fit, and to the best of their ability. Some players embrace the numbers that an MMO is built on, and look at such meters as nothing different than a tachometer on a car. Sure, someone could operate a manual transmission quite well, just by listening to the sound of the engine - but only a tachometer will give you exactly how many RPMs the engine is turning, and allow you to shift at a specific point.

That being said - it is possible for a threat meter to reduce some of the challenge in an instance. However, unless DN is a completely different ballgame, most of the challenge in instances aren't due to simple threat mechanics. Between random threat, strategy, and execution of said strategy - only the worst groups fail an instance because the guard was in the bathroom, and the hunter thought going 4 deep in BM in strength stance was a great way to live longer.

That aside, threat is not a visible mechanic in the game - Turbine has always been very vague about threat - never using actual numbers and instead, using terms such as low, moderate and high. It's a mechanic that unlike even DPS/HPS is completely hidden from the player - where the only way to tell is whether or not a mob starts moving towards you. Should Turbine decide to make this mechanic more transparent, then I would agree that Threat Meters should be available - but as long as Turbine's hiding this mechanic behind a curtain, then I think it should remain there.
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  #20  
Unread 10-01-2010, 05:29 AM
rushl rushl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim
Guessing the amount of threat I am generating from a feeling is not skill.
I suppose here is where our difference lies. I've seen hunters who have no clue stay in Strength and pound DPS. They die quickly, usually. Often with experience though, they learn how far to push it. When to drop to Endurance. When they can switch back to Strength. The decision process there comes from experience, and the ability to gauge Threat. It's not just "guessing". As an experienced hunter, I have a good idea of how long to wait and let the guard build up Threat before I start wailing. And I can usually judge when to back off, so I don't pull the mob. Sometimes I screw it up - and I hope I can learn from those mistakes, and improve next time.

That's experience. And it's meaningless if there was a little bar telling me when to do what. The bar becomes a substitute for experience, and I think that's what people generally don't like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim
Yes, there is judgement and knowledge needed to play the game. A threat meter would not remove that. As I stated previously, you would be given the option to exercise even more judgement about what you should do.
Eh, the only judgment it takes to correctly use the Threat meter is the ability to read, or more likely just the ability to identify color. Sure, that's a "judgment" - but it's one a 7 year old could do. "If the meter becomes RED, switch to Endurance and stop shooting." That's not a skill. That's just reading. I want more from my gaming experience that to just read off a meter which skill to use when and press the button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim
In your line of thinking, we may as well get rid of our vitals display and start guessing what they are because that would make it too easy.
That's exaggerating the argument. Sure, getting rid of all informational displays would increase difficulty. But being as difficult as possible isn't the goal here. There's a balance between too hard and too easy - and we want to stay in the middle of that. Getting rid of all information makes things too hard. Threat meters makes things too easy. Ergo, keep the information we have now, and don't add Threat meters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia
Whenever I see a discussion come up about something that will "trivialize the content" or "make the game too easy", I always wonder whether the individuals that claim such things are doing so only because it isn't in the game. So saying such a meter would make the game "too easy" is the opinion of the individual - especially if they have no problems playing the game without it.
This could be true to an extent - but we have knowledge of what adding Threat meters has done to other games. Therefore, we know the difference between having it and not, and most people believe that not is better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia
That being said - it is possible for a threat meter to reduce some of the challenge in an instance. However, unless DN is a completely different ballgame, most of the challenge in instances aren't due to simple threat mechanics. Between random threat, strategy, and execution of said strategy - only the worst groups fail an instance because the guard was in the bathroom, and the hunter thought going 4 deep in BM in strength stance was a great way to live longer.
Perhaps that's true, but if Threat weren't a key factor in most encounters, people wouldn't be asking for meters. If Threat were removed as a factor in an encounter, and knowing it didn't make things easier or harder, I don't think people would care if there was a meter. It's like asking to know your hobbit's shoe size. If the data doesn't affect the game, there's no harm in knowing it. I believe however that Threat is a key component to most encounters (well, group ones anyway). That's why some are asking for a meter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia
Should Turbine decide to make this mechanic more transparent, then I would agree that Threat Meters should be available - but as long as Turbine's hiding this mechanic behind a curtain, then I think it should remain there.
I have no doubt that if we're given access to that data we'll see a meter in minutes. I would also be inclined to believe that if Turbine gives us that data, then it would be a statement that they didn't think Threat management was a key component to the game. Essentially, it's on them to determine exactly how important Threat is. Unless they can be convinced that it's not a key component, our discussion is largely academic.

rushl
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